1 Posted: Thursday, October 12, 2017 9:57 PM

A while ago I added up what it would cost to buy all the ingredients needed to make Brewdog's Punk IPA and it was going to be over $100, albeit with a LOT of leftover hops at the end.

Now I'm thinking … why not just eliminate some of the different varieties? I'll still use the same overall amount, bu where the recipe calls for two different kinds of similar hops I'll just use the one.

Here's what it contains:

20.0g Chinook (start)
12.5g Ahtanum (start)
20.0g Chinook (middle)
12.5g Ahtanum (middle)
27.5g Chinook (end)
12.5g Ahtanum (end)
12.5g Simcoe (end)
12.5g Nelson (end)
47.5g Chinook (dry)
37.5g Ahtanum (dry)
37.5g Simcoe (dry)
20.0g Nelson (dry)
37.5g Cascade (dry)
10.0g Amarillo (dry)

So obviously the Amarillo is a good candidate for elimination and could probably be replaced with Cascade or Simcoe. The Nelson and Cascade could also possibly go if Simcoe is up the responsibility of taking on the role of all three of those?

How similar are Ahtanum and Chinook as well? I've never used either of them before.

2 Posted: Thursday, October 12, 2017 10:06 PM

Hmmm, apparently not similar at all, but Ahtanum and Cascade are as it turns out.

So, if you had to use one of either Nelson, Amarillo or Simcoe to cover all three based on the following, which would you go with?

12.5g Simcoe (end)
12.5g Nelson (end)
37.5g Simcoe (dry)
20.0g Nelson (dry)
10.0g Amarillo (dry)

Simcoe, right?

3 Posted: Thursday, October 12, 2017 10:30 PM

King Ruddager:

A while ago I added up what it would cost to buy all the ingredients needed to make Brewdog's Punk IPA and it was going to be over $100, albeit with a LOT of leftover hops at the end.

Now I'm thinking … why not just eliminate some of the different varieties? I'll still use the same overall amount, bu where the recipe calls for two different kinds of similar hops I'll just use the one.

Here's what it contains:

20.0g Chinook (start)
12.5g Ahtanum (start)
20.0g Chinook (middle)
12.5g Ahtanum (middle)
27.5g Chinook (end)
12.5g Ahtanum (end)
12.5g Simcoe (end)
12.5g Nelson (end)
47.5g Chinook (dry)
37.5g Ahtanum (dry)
37.5g Simcoe (dry)
20.0g Nelson (dry)
37.5g Cascade (dry)
10.0g Amarillo (dry)

So obviously the Amarillo is a good candidate for elimination and could probably be replaced with Cascade or Simcoe. The Nelson and Cascade could also possibly go if Simcoe is up the responsibility of taking on the role of all three of those?

How similar are Ahtanum and Chinook as well? I've never used either of them before.


I used Ahtanum once and was not all that impressed with it, very ho-hum, which is why I have not used it again. If you are looking to decrease the number of varieties, I'd drop it.

I think you could leave Cascade, and Amarillo out of the dry hop, if you use Centennial instead. Then you would be down to four varieties: Chinook, Simcoe, Nelson, and Centennial. Centennial also works well late in the boil, and in the whirlpool.

Chinook by itself is probably good for the early and middle additions.

Cheers,

Christina.

4 Posted: Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:29 PM

There's only 10g of Amarillo, so rather than using Centennial I could keep the Cascade and use it in place of Ahtanum, given that they are supposedly similar?

5 Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 1:07 AM

King Ruddager:

There's only 10g of Amarillo, so rather than using Centennial I could keep the Cascade and use it in place of Ahtanum, given that they are supposedly similar?


Ahtanum did not seem very citus-y to me. Cascades is very bold, Ahtanum is not. Cascades is a great hop, a classic.

IMO Amarillo, Cascades, and Centennial are all far nicer than Ahtanum.

You may find the charts in this link, which divides hops into families, will help you decide:

http://brewconductor.com/brewing/ingredients/hop-varieties-and-personality-groups/

All of the Punk hops except Nelson are part of Cascadian Hop family, occupying different strata.

I have seen these charts before, I think they come from Randy Mosher's book “Mastering Homebrew.” The brewconductor does not identify him/herself, or at least I couldn't find it. Maybe it is Randy Mosher himself?

Cheers,

Christina.

6 Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 9:06 AM

Oh wow, that's a pretty cool set of charts!

I must say though, since there's so much Ahtanum in there I think I'll stick with that as one of the varieties I use.

7 Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 11:37 AM

Hi Ruddy.

Ahtanum is more floral than it is citrus. It's not a heavy feel hop, it's more delicate. Sort of like a subdued Amarillo, but seems to hold it's own aromatically. I quite like it when used in the right mix.

Chinook will give you grapefruit/citrus & a nice spicy tone. One of my favourite hops. I wouldn't be leaving it out. Simcoe has some citrus tones, but I find it more piney than anything else.

Dump the Amarillo & Cascade but keep the rest as is. I doubt you'll miss those hops too much.

Good luck with the brew.

Just my 2 cents.

Lusty.

8 Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 11:46 AM

Chinook definitely won't be being left out - there's even more of it than Ahtanum!

I just added up the totals and here's what I got …

Ahtanum - 75 - 101.25
Amarillo - 10 - 13.5
Cascade - 37.5 - 50.625
Chinook - 115 - 155.25
Nelson - 32.5 - 43.875
Simcoe - 50 - 67.5

(first number is per the 20L recipe, second is scaled up to my 27L batch size)

I've probably actually already got 13g of Amarillo come to think of it, so maybe that one can stay.

The Ahtanum I can round down to one 100g bag, that's easy. Chinook I'll need two bags of and will have ~45g left over. Simcoe I don't mind buying a bag of, so perhaps I can get away with just combining the cascade and nelson.

Perhaps the LHBS will take pity on my and do two 50g bags - I'll just have to ask nicely.

So in total that's probably 5 bags, so roughly $45 worth of hops going into one batch! Eep

9 Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 11:57 AM

Another thing to consider, the total dry hop turns out to be a whopping 9.5g/L. At what point does does the dry hop amount start becoming ridiculous and you get diminishing returns?

10 Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 12:15 PM

ChristinaS1:

King Ruddager:

There's only 10g of Amarillo, so rather than using Centennial I could keep the Cascade and use it in place of Ahtanum, given that they are supposedly similar?


Ahtanum did not seem very citus-y to me. Cascades is very bold, Ahtanum is not. Cascades is a great hop, a classic.

IMO Amarillo, Cascades, and Centennial are all far nicer than Ahtanum.

You may find the charts in this link, which divides hops into families, will help you decide:

http://brewconductor.com/brewing/ingredients/hop-varieties-and-personality-groups/

All of the Punk hops except Nelson are part of Cascadian Hop family, occupying different strata.

I have seen these charts before, I think they come from Randy Mosher's book “Mastering Homebrew.” The brewconductor does not identify him/herself, or at least I couldn't find it. Maybe it is Randy Mosher himself?

Cheers,

Christina.


Great chart thanks for posting that's in the brew file cheers Brian

11 Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 12:46 PM

Oh wow, the bitterness is off the charts with these quantities as well.

Keeping in mind that I add 10 minutes for BIAB I would need to do the bittering additions at 30 minutes, the “middle” at flameout and the “end” 10 minutes after flameout.

Based on that, it might be worth cutting back on Chinook across the board to bring that 155g down to an even 100.

I've turned this into a spreadsheet now - check it out:

12 Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 12:59 PM

King Ruddager:

A while ago I added up what it would cost to buy all the ingredients needed to make Brewdog's Punk IPA and it was going to be over $100, albeit with a LOT of leftover hops at the end.

Now I'm thinking … why not just eliminate some of the different varieties? I'll still use the same overall amount, bu where the recipe calls for two different kinds of similar hops I'll just use the one.

Here's what it contains:

20.0g Chinook (start)
12.5g Ahtanum (start)
20.0g Chinook (middle)
12.5g Ahtanum (middle)
27.5g Chinook (end)
12.5g Ahtanum (end)
12.5g Simcoe (end)
12.5g Nelson (end)
47.5g Chinook (dry)
37.5g Ahtanum (dry)
37.5g Simcoe (dry)
20.0g Nelson (dry)
37.5g Cascade (dry)
10.0g Amarillo (dry)

So obviously the Amarillo is a good candidate for elimination and could probably be replaced with Cascade or Simcoe. The Nelson and Cascade could also possibly go if Simcoe is up the responsibility of taking on the role of all three of those?

How similar are Ahtanum and Chinook as well? I've never used either of them before.


I thought about trying this recipe soon so I reckon you should spend up Rudd and tell me how it is ha ha ha

Youngie

13 Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 1:06 PM

Oh bloody hell, the LHBS doesn't have Ahtanum in stock anyway!

14 Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 1:51 PM

King Ruddager:

Another thing to consider, the total dry hop turns out to be a whopping 9.5g/L. At what point does does the dry hop amount start becoming ridiculous and you get diminishing returns?

I asked pretty much that same question to a fellow brewer on another forum I visit.

The hop schedule he had listed was the following…

1st Whirlpool addition - 25 minute stand
2.4 g/L Ella (15%)
1.6 g/L Columbus (12%)
0.8 g/L Galaxy (13.7%)

2nd Whirlpool addition - 25 minute stand
2.4 g/L Ella (15%)
2.4 g/L Galaxy (13.7%)
1.6 g/L Columbus (12%)

Hopback
4.8 g/L Ella (15%)
1.6 g/L Motueka (7.6%)
1.3 g/L Topaz (15.7%)

His reply was…

“…And no, haven't found the limit yet.”

Cheers,

Lusty.

15 Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 4:43 PM

Alrighty, here's what I've got for my 27L batch, which works out to 41.8 IBUs (which is 1.8 too many). The %ages given are the amount relative to the original recipe - I've tried to keep the ratios somewhat consistent as much as possible.

@60 minutes:
15g Chinook (56%) - this will actually get added @40
10g Ahtanum (59%)

@10 minutes:
15g Chinook (56%)
10g Ahtanum (59%)

@-5 minutes:
25g Chinook (67%)
15g Ahtanum (89%)
15g Simcoe (89%)
15g Nelson (89%)

Dry:
45g Chinook (70%)
45g Ahtanum (89%)
45g Simcoe (89%)
25g Nelson (93%)
45g Cascade (99%)
15g Amarillo (111%)

Overall, the percentage of hops I'm using relative to the original recipe at each stage is as follows …
Start: 57%
Middle: 57%
End: 80%
Dry: 86%

I'm actually pretty sure that the LHBS will do some fairly specific quantities for me, in which case I'll be able to add a bit more Chinook in the late and dry stages to have it more relatively similar to everything else.

This is starting to look pretty good!

16 Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 10:04 PM

Alright, the order has been placed. Here's what I've got …

6kg Ale malt (94.5%)
350g Caramalt (5.5%)

Mash @66°C

10g Ahtanum @60
15g Chinook @40
10g Ahtanum @10
15g Chinook @10
15g Ahtanum @-5
25g Chinook @-5
15g Nelson @-5
15g Simcoe @-5
45g Ahtanum @dry
45g Chinook @dry
45g Simcoe @dry
25g Nelson @dry
45g Cascade @dry
12g Amarillo @dry

Wyeast 1056 American Ale

Ferment at 19°C

I'm expecting …
OG: 1.051
FG: 1.012
IBU: 41.4
EBC: 12.6
ABV: 5.3%

Sliiiiightly less colour and ABV than the original, sliiiiiightly more bitterness, but the rest is spot on

Total cost was $90 and the recipe has a total of 320g of hops. The Amarillo I already had and at the end of it I'll have leftover cascade, nelson and simcoe totaling about 150g.

This had better go well!!

17 Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:22 PM

Good luck with it Rudy. I'll be curious to hear how the real Punk IPA and your version taste side-by-side.

Cheers,

Christina.

18 Posted: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 1:06 AM

King Ruddager:

Alright, the order has been placed. Here's what I've got …

6kg Ale malt (94.5%)
350g Caramalt (5.5%)

Mash @66°C

10g Ahtanum @60
15g Chinook @40
10g Ahtanum @10
15g Chinook @10
15g Ahtanum @-5
25g Chinook @-5
15g Nelson @-5
15g Simcoe @-5
45g Ahtanum @dry
45g Chinook @dry
45g Simcoe @dry
25g Nelson @dry
45g Cascade @dry
12g Amarillo @dry

Wyeast 1056 American Ale

Ferment at 19°C

I'm expecting …
OG: 1.051
FG: 1.012
IBU: 41.4
EBC: 12.6
ABV: 5.3%

Sliiiiightly less colour and ABV than the original, sliiiiiightly more bitterness, but the rest is spot on

Total cost was $90 and the recipe has a total of 320g of hops. The Amarillo I already had and at the end of it I'll have leftover cascade, nelson and simcoe totaling about 150g.

This had better go well!!


Looking forward to the video Rudd!!

19 Posted: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 9:28 AM

I'm looking forward to EVERYTHING about this one! The 217g dry hop is completely uncharted territory for me!

20 Posted: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 10:24 AM

You'll love it!

To be on the safe side, I'd be making a starter wort to make sure that the viability of the yeast in the smack pack is in good order, & to make sure the brew definitely ferments out. With expensive brews like this one, the last you want is fermentation issues.

I too will look forward to the video. I hope you've been doing some weight lifting in the lead-up, as you've not been previously conditioned to lifting & adding this much weight of hops to your brews in the past!

Good luck with the brew,

Lusty.