1 Posted: Saturday, June 17, 2017 12:38 AM

Hi all,

I tried hard last year to come up with a kit based recipe for a chocolatey tasting stout that just uses specialty malts to achieve the chocolate flavour, so no cocoa nibs, chocolate liqueurs, or flavour extracts. My efforts, and those of some fellow brewers, are documented in this thread:

https://club.coopers.com.au/coopers-forum/topic/14874/

The conclusion I came to is that using the stout kit as a base is a mistake, as it has a high percentage of roasted malts already; adding more just makes it too roasty. Mention was made of using the Dark Ale kit instead, but none of us pursued that as the season changed and attention shifted to lighter brews. But I have still been thinking about it, and today I am presenting the recipe for feedback:

1.7kg Dark Ale kit
1.5kg Amber LME
200gm Thomas Fawcett Pale chocolate (or Joe White)
100gm roasted barley
100gm Carafa Spec 2 (de-husked)
23L
S-04 yeast (rehydrated)

Edit: gravity, ABV, EBC, IBU numbers removed.

What do you think? I am a bit concerned that the IBUs of the Dark Ale kit are still too high for a chocolatey stout.

Cheers,

Christina.

2 Posted: Saturday, June 17, 2017 7:25 AM

We're currently drinking a version of RoboChoc that I made a few months ago, and it's super chocolatey.
I used the English Bitter kit, but with 1.5kg of Briess Munich LME, and US-05.
I steeped or mini mashed the following:
150g Carafa 1
50 Midnight Wheat
100 Rye
100 Roasted Barley
250 Pale Chocolate
Plus 250g white sugar, made to 24 litres.
I started it at 22° but it stalled at 1.022, so I added the kit yeast to finish it off.
As I said earlier, delicious with lots of chocolate and some coffee notes as well.
I did another version with Real Ale, light DME and reduced specialty grains - still lovely porter, but without the wonderful deep chocolate etc aspects.

3 Posted: Saturday, June 17, 2017 8:43 AM

MarkC:

We're currently drinking a version of RoboChoc that I made a few months ago, and it's super chocolatey.
I used the English Bitter kit, but with 1.5kg of Briess Munich LME, and US-05.
I steeped or mini mashed the following:
150g Carafa 1
50 Midnight Wheat
100 Rye
100 Roasted Barley
250 Pale Chocolate
Plus 250g white sugar, made to 24 litres.
I started it at 22° but it stalled at 1.022, so I added the kit yeast to finish it off.
As I said earlier, delicious with lots of chocolate and some coffee notes as well.
I did another version with Real Ale, light DME and reduced specialty grains - still lovely porter, but without the wonderful deep chocolate etc aspects.


Neat Mark. Which type of Carafa 1 did you use, the de-husked “Special” or the regular Carafa 1 with the husk?

The rye is an interesting twist.

Cheers,

Christina.

4 Posted: Saturday, June 17, 2017 10:22 AM

If you can get your hands on some Gladfield Brown Malt, maybe give that a try. I'll be using in in future porters and stouts after my good experience with it in a recent American Brown.

5 Posted: Saturday, June 17, 2017 11:30 AM

Christina, I used the Special

6 Posted: Saturday, June 17, 2017 12:06 PM

How about chocolate coffee stout?

7 Posted: Saturday, June 17, 2017 12:46 PM

Bradchad:

How about chocolate coffee stout?


Are you suggesting “dry beaning” this recipe? Hmm, interesting. I think I will try without first, to see if it is chocolatey.

If you want to use specialty malts, I find roasted barley quite espresso like. Franco Belges makes a Kiln Coffee malt, and Simpson's makes Coffee malt, which is sometimes labelled Brown malt. I have never used either of them, but have read to only use them in a low IBU brews, with residual sweetness as well, because they are astringent.

Cheers,

Christina.

8 Posted: Sunday, June 18, 2017 9:32 AM

Well was an idea I thought bout. Just wanted to ask few people here first.
I've had a few on tap at pubs around the place and its heaven.
But yeah would love to make own.
Any help good help haha

9 Posted: Sunday, June 18, 2017 3:38 PM

ChristinaS1:

OG 1.047 FG 1.012 ABV 5.0% EBC 70 IBUs 32.

The Dark Ale kit is rated at 590 IBU. So 590 x 1.7 divided by 23 = 43.6 IBU for your brew. I'd be looking for approx. 1.013-1.015 for you FG as S-04 usually leaves a little more body & residual sweetness behind. I have attenuation for this yeast set at 71 - 73%.

I can't comment with any certainty on what your recipe will produce as I haven't brewed a beer with this kit as yet to know how much sweetness it already comprises to know exactly how to alter the final flavours to what you are after. I haven't used lactose before either as I've preferred to use grains to provide any required sweetness & body thus far.

I was going to recommend the Midnight Wheat in place of the Chocolate Malt, but given your current view of wheat & yeast derived phenols I'll pass on that one.

One thing I would recommend though is to cold steep the grains overnight, as this should minimize any harsh astringency that can occur from hot steeping roasted grains.

Good luck with the brew. I'll be interested in the outcome.

Cheers,

Lusty.

10 Posted: Sunday, June 18, 2017 8:45 PM

Hi Lusty,

Thanks for your input. You can always be counted on in that regard, which is nice.

Just a little correction: I have no objection to using wheat, I just won't ferment it with US-05. I have never had problems with wheat when I use other yeasts for fermentation.

I could see using Midnight Wheat instead of the Carafa Special 2, since both are husk-less, but not in place of the Pale Chocolate malt. The Pale Chocolate, together with the Black Patent in the Dark Ale kit, is what is supposed to make it taste chocolatey. I do wonder if regular (aka dark) Chocolate would be better, or a split between Thomas Fawcett Pale Chocolate and regular Chocolate?

About the IBUs, my numbers come from Ian's spreadsheet and are an estimate of post-fermentation IBUs. Yours measure pre-fermentation bitterness. I am willing to concede that yours are more comparable to what is given in all grain recipes.

Cheers,

Christina.

PS I just changed the recipe a little, to include the lactose, and swap the crystal for Amber LME.

11 Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 12:12 PM

I put this one down in Feb and just put the keg in the fridge last week. Was tasting extremely moorish.

1.7kg OS Dark Ale
1.7kg Irish Stout
500gm LDM
300gm Lactose (added to last 2 min of boil)
200g Carafa Spec 1 (both grain cold steeped for 24 hours)
100g Choc
11.5g Nottingham yeast and 1 Kit yeast (re-hydrated)
23L
Vile of Vodka and Vanilla Bean after primary finished.
Ferment 19 deg

12 Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 7:14 PM

Interesting Matt. How chocolatey is it?

I have been looking at stout recipes in the BrewDogs recipe catalogue and see some themes. Almost all have one of the de-husked Carafa Special malts, as well as crystal and oatmeal, even if it is not called an Oatmeal Stout, and many also contain a good chunk of wheat to boot. Of course most of their brews are high gravity and hoppy, so their techniques may not necessarily apply to lower gravity, less hoppy stouts. Except for American Stout, stouts don't usually have any late hopping / dry hopping.

As an aside, I did find one BrewDogs recipe that only had a single bittering addition, at the beginning of the boil, and nothing after that. Just out of curiosity I punched it into the Brewer's Friend recipe calculator, to check if their reported IBUs are closer to Tinseth or Rager calculations: they were almost dead on for Rager, and much higher than Tinseth's.

Cheers,

Christina.

13 Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 8:27 PM

You could try the dark grain grist I use in my Ace of Spades porter, it always comes out chocolatey with a hint of coffee undertone. It does use regular chocolate malt though rather than pale chocolate, but I think the other grains in the recipe prevent it from overpowering the beer.

14 Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 10:52 PM

Otto Von Blotto:

You could try the dark grain grist I use in my Ace of Spades porter, it always comes out chocolatey with a hint of coffee undertone. It does use regular chocolate malt though rather than pale chocolate, but I think the other grains in the recipe prevent it from overpowering the beer.


Is this your Ace of Spades Porter recipe (for 25L)?

88.9% Traditional Ale malt (6kg)
5.2% black patent (350gm)
3% C80L (200gm)
1.5% chocolate malt (100gm)
1.5% roasted barley (100gm)

In my gravity and volume 1.5% dark chocolate malt would work out to ~60gm.

Cheers,

Christina.

15 Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 5:56 AM

That one was the original grain bill for the 25 litre size yeah. I brewed it again earlier this year to 21 litres and so things changed a little. The percentages stayed the same but obviously the amounts dropped a bit. I think I did drop the base malt down further though.

5kg Maris Otter
310g Black Patent
180g Medium Crystal (80L)
90g each of choc malt and roasted barley.

16 Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 10:49 AM

Doing some more thinking and want to switch to using a Lager kit as the base:

1.7kg OS Lager kit
1.5kg wheat LME
200gm C80L 5%
200gm Thomas Fawcett Pale Chocolate malt 5%
100gm Midnight Wheat 2.5%
125gm Thomas Fawcett black patent 3.1%
100gm Thomas Fawcett Roasted Barley 2.5%
23L
S-04

I think the lower IBUs of the Lager kit will make it more balanced. There are five different specialty malts, so not so simple, but whatever. As long as it gives me the taste I am after.

Cheers,

Christina.

17 Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 11:13 AM

S-04 was the original yeast used in my porter recipe too, and next time I brew it I'm gonna go back to it. I think it brought out the choc flavours more than the 1469 I used on my latest batch did. I don't really care if it slacks off in the FV since I keg now.

By the way, that porter recipe is about 51 IBUs and is beautifully balanced.

18 Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 7:41 PM

Otto Von Blotto:

S-04 was the original yeast used in my porter recipe too, and next time I brew it I'm gonna go back to it. I think it brought out the choc flavours more than the 1469 I used on my latest batch did. I don't really care if it slacks off in the FV since I keg now.

By the way, that porter recipe is about 51 IBUs and is beautifully balanced.


Interesting that you found S-04 brought out more chocolatey flavours than 1469. Which formula do you use for calculating IBUs, is it Garet? Just out of curiosity, what IBUs does your recipe come to with Tinseth and Rager?

In my research I found a section of the Brewer's Friend site that I never knew existed. It tabulates all of the recipes loaded onto the site which you can search by ingredient, to see how often and in what percentage it appears in a recipes, or by style, to see which ingredients and in what percentages they are used in that style. Here is a link to the sweet stout style:

https://www.brewersfriend.com/styles/sweet-stout/

I also found this article which compared sample recipes for dry, caramel, malty, and biscuit/cracker-like RIS recipes. I punched all of them into a recipe calculator, fiddling with the base malt percentage to make sure all of them came out to OG of 1.098, and then recorded what percentage of the grist each ingredient came to. I am not aiming to make a RIS, but I think knowing the ingredients chosen, and the percentages, can help me formulate my recipe.

http://beerandwinejournal.com/ris-other-malts/

By analysis your Ace of Spades recipe looks like it fits the “dry” style, and a lot of the BrewDog recipes fall into the “malty” style. I think I am aiming for something in between.

Cheers,

Christina.

19 Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 8:57 PM

I use Tinseth for IBU calculations in my AG recipes, so the 51 figure is the Tinseth one.

I think the difference in the flavours re the yeasts is that 1469 does finish drier than other English strains and even though it still accentuates maltiness, it attenuates a bit more and leaves a more balanced beer (recipe dependent of course). This is why I switched to using it in my red ale, because it brought out the Caraaroma more than US-05, while still maintaining a refreshing and balanced finish. That probably doesn't really suit a porter though.

The other thing that changed in this most recent brewing was water treatment. I added chalk, epsom salts and gypsum to the strike water, which probably caused it to be a bit more balanced in terms of hoppy-malty. My water untreated is geared towards the malty side of the spectrum, and all previous batches were brewed with untreated water. Next time I'll chuck some cal chloride in there as well to make it unbalanced toward malty and see if that brings it back to its original self.

When it turns out properly it is anything but a dry beer; though it may well fit in that category in terms of RIS recipes, it lines up pretty well in the robust porter style, aside from the color which is where I got its name from along with the song title of the same name. This current lot on tap is still very nice, but just slightly drier and probably not quite as malty as previous batches have been. At least I know what to do to fix that though.

Cheers

Kelsey

20 Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 11:51 PM

ChristinaS1:

In my research I found a section of the Brewer's Friend site that I never knew existed. It tabulates all of the recipes loaded onto the site which you can search by ingredient, to see how often and in what percentage it appears in a recipes, or by style, to see which ingredients and in what percentages they are used in that style. Here is a link to the sweet stout style:

https://www.brewersfriend.com/styles/sweet-stout/

I also found this article which compared sample recipes for dry, caramel, malty, and biscuit/cracker-like RIS recipes. I punched all of them into a recipe calculator, fiddling with the base malt percentage to make sure all of them came out to OG of 1.098, and then recorded what percentage of the grist each ingredient came to. I am not aiming to make a RIS, but I think knowing the ingredients chosen, and the percentages, can help me formulate my recipe.

http://beerandwinejournal.com/ris-other-malts/

By analysis your Ace of Spades recipe looks like it fits the “dry” style, and a lot of the BrewDog recipes fall into the “malty” style.


Otto Von Blotto:

When it turns out properly it is anything but a dry beer; though it may well fit in that category in terms of RIS recipes….


Hi Kelsey. Earlier, when I said your Ace of Spades looks to fall in the “dry” category, I was just eyeballing it. I have now done a more detailed analysis, figuring out the ratio of crystal malts to roasted malts, and take that back. Actually the Ace of Spades is not dry at all, but of course hop bitterness and water play into it too.

Dry: 3.52
Caramel: 1.44
Malty: 1.98
Biscuit: 3.48
Ace of Spades: 2.7

My most recent recipe with the Lager kit base in post #16: 2.62, so very close to your Ace of Spades.

Cheers,

Christina.