1 Posted: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 9:04 PM

Hey guys,

Just wanted to hear some opinions on dry hopping duration and cold crashing.

I've read in the past that leaving dry hops (particularly Galaxy) in the fermenter for tool long can result in grassy/off flavours.

So my question is… If I dry hop for 4-5 days, then cold crash for another week, will that be too long with the dry hops? Am I better off using hop balls/bag and removing the hops before the cold crash? Or does cold crashing nullify the dry hopping for the duration of the cold crash?

I'll be using Amarillo on this occasion, but the question is general.

Thanks guys.

2 Posted: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 9:24 PM

Good question, and one I've been wondering about myself lately. I've never used Galaxy but I do dry hop with the American C hops a fair bit. In this case they normally sit in there for 3-4 days at a bit above ferment temps before the whole thing is CC'd for a week and I've not had any problems with grassy flavours or aromas from it. Others' experience may differ of course.

Most of the time I put them in tea strainer balls but I really can't be arsed trying to remove them - sometimes they sink to the bottom, sometimes they don't.. it's just a PITA. During the CC they drop to the bottom though, and I just fish them out after emptying the FV.

Cheers

Kelsey

3 Posted: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 10:26 PM

Hi lamensterms.

lamensterms:

Hey guys,

Just wanted to hear some opinions on dry hopping duration and cold crashing.

I've read in the past that leaving dry hops (particularly Galaxy) in the fermenter for tool long can result in grassy/off flavours.

IMHO, this negative trait becomes more apparent the longer you leave dry hops in contact with the beer. The intensity of which this negative trait presents appears to be hop specific (i.e. certain hop varieties throw this trait more intensely than others).

lamensterms:

So my question is… If I dry hop for 4-5 days, then cold crash for another week, will that be too long with the dry hops? Am I better off using hop balls/bag and removing the hops before the cold crash? Or does cold crashing nullify the dry hopping for the duration of the cold crash?

I watched a video a few years back that has proven a great many things about the usage of hops in brewing to me that I have put into my practical brewing since viewing it. I posted a thread with a link on it that can be found HERE.

In that video James Altwies states that it only takes 2-3 full days to release ALL the essential oils from the hops into solution. So based on that premise, the way I see it is any longer time than that, you really just have vegetal matter exposed to the beer that is really doing nothing but adding & gradually increasing that grassy type tone into the beer. So why leave them in there?

I wrap or bag my dry hops so they can be removed after the said time frame. I even tested this theory using some Saaz for a dry hop in a beer that is said to be a big no-no as it produces the worst grassy tones. I wrapped them & dry hopped them for 3 days, then removed them. Not a hint of grassiness in the final beer at all, just a light lemony type aroma.

Take that info for what you feel it is worth.

Cheers,

Lusty.

4 Posted: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:10 PM

Hey guys,

Thanks a lot for the quick replies & info.

Historically I've been using the chux or the tea ball method, and had always removed the dry hops after 5 days max. In the few brews that I have dry hopped, the chux/balls has been floating when it was time to remove them, so plucking them out hasn't been too much of a hassle. But like you say Kelsey, if they sink… I could be better off leaving them in there.

Looks like I can now afford to shorten the dry hop duration and get on with the cold crash sooner.

That's a very interesting video too, Lusty. I'm only 10 minutes in, and I've learned stuff already haha. Thanks for sharing the one.

5 Posted: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 1:07 PM

That's a really interesting video. Wish my lunch was longer to finish watching it. So basically if cold crashing it's better to remove the hops to be safe? In terms of not being able to cold crash at the moment the best dry hoping routine would be to do it near the end of fermentation so it can clean up and bottle?

6 Posted: Sunday, March 19, 2017 2:52 AM

Hi Everyone,

My LHBS has just started carrying Mosaic hops, and I am giving them a try. There are a lot of different ways to dry hop: commando vs contained, warm vs cold, at the tail end of fermentation vs post fermentation, long vs short contact time, pellets vs loose, and probably lots of techniques can make good beer.

Since I haven't done a lot of dry hopping in the past, I thought that this was a good opportunity to delve into the subject. I wanted to look at some actual studies instead of just opinion. Just passing along some of the info I came across that I found helpful.

The first link is to an in depth overview of hopping by home brewer Scott Janish, who also has a excellent hop oils calculator (which I plan to make use of). I have also added links to two of the studies in his bibliography:

http://scottjanish.com/examination-of-studies-hopping-methods-and-concepts-for-achieving-maximum-hop-aroma-and-flavor/

https://hopsteiner.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/3_Dry-Hopping-A-Study-of-Various-Parameters.pdf

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1567-1364.2003.tb00138.x/full

I found the last link very interesting as it talks about biotransformation by yeast of some hop compounds, particularly geraniol (sweet, dry rose petals, rose hips) into citronellol (fresh, clean rose, citronella), and linalool (floral, orange) into terpineol (lilac like). In addition lager yeast turn geraniol and citronellol into esters, something to keep in mind for those who use the APA kit, with its ale/lager yeast blend, as a base. To benefit from biotransformation one has to dry hop after the initial, active stage of fermentation, but before terminal gravity is reached. Another benefit of drying hopping at the tail end of fermentation is that the yeast will mop up the oxygen that is introduced when dry hopping….I also like what I read about dry hopping during the cold crash.

In the past I've dry hopped warm, post fermentation, before the cold crash, but this time I will probably split my dry hops into two doses, one at the tail end of fermentation, and the other during the cold crash. As always, I'll do it commando style, to get the most bang from my hops.

I'd be interested in hearing what others think of the info.

Cheers,

Christina.

7 Posted: Sunday, March 19, 2017 3:54 AM

If I don't intend to consume a keg for a couple of weeks or more after kegging then I no longer dry hop the fermenter. Instead I dry hop the keg just prior to or when putting on tap. My idea is that hops deteriorate quickly so applying them as close to the time of consumption as possible maximises their effect. I have also dry hopped a keg half way through if I've found hop flavour diminishing. I've experimented with leaving the keg hopper in for a few days and also a few weeks until the keg is finished. I've done this with Citra, Galaxy and Cascade so far and haven't experienced any grassy or vegetal flavours. Not sure but could it be the fact that the kegs being stored at 2ºC negates the long dry hop off flavours?

8 Posted: Sunday, March 19, 2017 9:25 AM

ChristinaS1:

I'd be interested in hearing what others think of the info.


Ouch.
I dry hop when cold crashing so perhaps that has benefit with yeast not interacting with the hop oils.

9 Posted: Sunday, March 19, 2017 9:34 AM

ChristinaS1:

I'd be interested in hearing what others think of the info.


Plenty of great interesting stuff on the Scott Janish site. I'm really enjoying reading it. Thanks very much for sharing Christina.

Here's a good one I liked DRY HOP BITTERING

And another one DRY HOPPING AND EFFECT ON IBU

I intend to make an APA with around 10 to 20 IBUs using magnum for a 60 min boil and then keg hop the rest ( maybe around 150 g) to see how it turns out.

10 Posted: Sunday, March 19, 2017 11:07 AM

My current NEIPA brew now has a whole pound of dry hops added in 2 doses
284 g at high krausen
175 g added at SG of 1.015

There was another 80 g during boil and 150g at whirlpool so all up nearly 700 g of high AA pellets in 24 litre batch heheheh .

Wish i'd read those articles before as now have no real idea of where my final IBU figure will end up but samples are very promising .
I'll make sure Lusty gets one of these and any other Radelaide locals are welcome to try for themselves

11 Posted: Sunday, March 19, 2017 12:58 PM

Holy, Mark, that's a lot of hops, but I am kind of a hops novice. Which hops are you using? How many IBUs from your kettle boil?

Let us know how your beer turns out. Do you and Morrie live near to each other? Maybe you can do a side-by-side comparison for us?

Scott's hop oils calculator is neat because you can see the effect of adding two or more hops together.

Cheers,

Christina.

12 Posted: Sunday, March 19, 2017 1:25 PM

Morrie:

ChristinaS1:

I'd be interested in hearing what others think of the info.


Plenty of great interesting stuff on the Scott Janish site. I'm really enjoying reading it. Thanks very much for sharing Christina.

Here's a good one I liked DRY HOP BITTERING

And another one DRY HOPPING AND EFFECT ON IBU

I intend to make an APA with around 10 to 20 IBUs using magnum for a 60 min boil and then keg hop the rest ( maybe around 150 g) to see how it turns out.


Hi Morrie,

Thanks for the links to two more of Scott Janish's articles. Based on the second article, next time around I might go the opposite direction as you, using a higher starting IBU beer, before dry hoping.

FYI to readers, Scott reported, “dry hopping can either increase or decrease beer bitterness….In discussions with John Maye, the author of the study, I found out that this “sweet spot” for attempting to determine the effect of humulinones through dry hopping is estimated to be around 25 IBUs. This means that beers with IBUs under 20 can become more bitter by dry hopping and beers with IBUs above 30 can become less bitter by dry hopping. I would guess then that almost every heavily hopped IPA on the market today is actually seeing a reduction in bitterness, but not measured IBUs….On the whole, this reducing in bitterness in dry hopped beers isn’t a bad thing in my opinion because of the “smoother” bitterness that humulinones impart.”

I'll be interested to hear how your beer turns out Morrie. Let us know.

Very interesting.

Cheers,

Christina.

13 Posted: Sunday, March 19, 2017 2:21 PM

G'day Christina - I live above the tropic of Capricorn in Mackay so a long way from Mark. After reading those other articles properly, I've come to a similar conclusion as you for my first experimental brew with dry hopping.

I'm now thinking of a 25 IBUs addition of Magnum for 60 mins and the rest keg hopped on kegging day. So hopefully I can end up anywhere between 35 and 45 IBUs. Its really interesting how humulinone actually negates iso-alpha but on the same hand the bitterness through alpha and humulinone can still increase.

I'm 2 weeks off kegging a 51 IBUs APA (citra/galaxy). I could go in pretty hard on this with hops in the keg as there shouldn't be any increased bitterness due to its already 51 IBUs. I won't dry hop this in the fermenter as I still have 1.3 kegs left of APA in the fridge, I'll just keg hop on the day of kegging or leave it and hop 3 days prior to consuming.

The full keg in the fridge at the moment is a 63 IBUs citra/mosiac and it hasn't had any dry hopping keg wise or fermenter wise, so I guess it will get a good hit of keg hops in a few days when the other keg blows.

14 Posted: Monday, March 20, 2017 6:21 AM

I totally forgot to dry hop my APA that's in the fermenter currently at my usual time… it will be done today, at precisely a few seconds before I turn the temp controller to 0C for a week of cold conditioning. I guess the hops will sit at ferment temps for a few hours at least but by tomorrow the brew will be down around 5C. Will be interesting to see how this goes.

15 Posted: Monday, March 20, 2017 6:41 AM

I had a little play around yesterday with a keg that had about 6 or 7 litres remaining. It was around 63 IBUs, citra/amarillo, and just a little on the bitter side by the third schooner. I whacked around maybe 60 or 70 grams of hops into it. I didn't bother measuring them but it must work out at around 10 grams per litre. Used, citra, cascade and amarillo. I had a schooner out of that keg after 6 hours and it is delicious. It really decreased the IBUs, or a perception of less bitterness, tastes like around 30 to 40 now. I really find it strange to get my head around this that you can use more hops and a beer will become less bitter.

16 Posted: Monday, March 20, 2017 9:05 AM

Off topic,but did you guys see the article Scott Janish wrote about the many benefits of brewing with oats? About the only downside seems to be less head retention.

http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

I have yet to try oats. Probably have to do a partial mash.

Cheers,

Christina.

17 Posted: Monday, March 20, 2017 10:03 AM

I did read some of his stuff briefly about oats and when I heard poor head retention then that switched me off. I love froth right till the end. I did watch one of his youtube clips of him brewing with his Braumeister.

18 Posted: Monday, March 20, 2017 11:41 AM

Morrie:

I did read some of his stuff briefly about oats and when I heard poor head retention then that switched me off.

Yeah! I thought that was a bit of a deal-breaker too!

19 Posted: Monday, March 20, 2017 12:28 PM

True, but only if you use them at >10% of the grist. I'd probably stick to 10%. Might try them is a stout. The shorter lag times and anti-staling effect are interesting.

Cheers,

Christina

20 Posted: Monday, March 20, 2017 12:40 PM

Torrified wheat will increase head retention…ive used it in a few brews now!
its been succesfull…

tadcaster samual smiths, oatmeal stout is a great stout a interesting one to clone its one of my favs along side there taddy porter